rience had gone, he was surprised that
there had not been more outrages com-
mitted than there were. In the month
of November there were only five pri-
soners for trial in the gaol of Leitrim.
He believed that there were few counties
in England which could say as much at
that period of the year. Was he not
justified, then, in representing the county
to have been in a remarkably quiet
state? The learned Sergeant had refer-
red to an outrage committed on the Rev.
Mr. Hogg, of the parish of Cloon. He
had received the facts of that outrage
from a friend of his. He begged to de-
clare that he yielded to no man in his
desire to promote the peace of the country.
To him it was of the highest importance.
He lived there. Therefore, to him, he re-
peated, it was of the utmost consequence
that peace should prevail. He did not
mean to say, that he had put himself in
any situation of danger to effect that ob-
ject. He did not say, like Lord Charle-
ville, that he would share in the danger
of enforcing peace; he did not say he
would share any danger; but he was ready
to do his duty; and the fact was, that he
had never been incommoded. He lived in
a house without fire-arms; its windows
were open down to the ground; and no
stone wall surrounded it. Such was his
position, yet he had never been incom-
moded in the slightest degree. But the
hon. and learned Sergeant said, that Mr.
Potter, forsooth, connected the outrage on
the Rev. Mr. Hogg with the clemency of
the Lord-Lieutenant. He would tell the
House how that gentleman came to the
county first he would show them what
the country must expect if the Tories came
into power.
Of course they must consult
somebody-they must consult the learned
Sergeant, and he must consult this Mr.
Potter. Well, Mr. Potter was introduced
to the county by the late Rector of Cloon
as a tithe proctor, and his conduct in that
capacity was so harassing, so obnoxious
to the people, and so disadvantageous to
the rector, that he, or the executors of
that gentleman, discharged him. At pre-
sent the living was held by Mr. French,
and he found the conduct of Mr. Potter
such that he discontinued him as his
tithe proctor. Mr. Potter having been so
treated by his friends, turned round and
joined the other party, and became an
anti-tithe agitator; so he united in his
own person the two characters which both

sides of the House agreed had most agitated the country. His side of the House attributed to the tithe proctors much of the agitation which had existed in Ireland; the other side contended that the agitation was chargeable against the anti-tithe agitators. Now this gentleman was both. He was originally a tithe proctor, and then he became an antitithe agitator. He, after this, tried a third trade, and now he was an attorney. It was in his capacity of attorney that he instituted the prosecution for that very outrage which the learned Sergeant wished to make out. Without entering into the question whether the prosecution was right or wrong, he would say the outrage was one of a horrible description, and one the parties to which he would bring to justice if he could; but he must also declare that it was not a party outrage. On this subject he would ask the House to whose testimony would they attach the greater weight-that of Mr. Saunderson, or that of Mr. Potter? He might throw into the scale his own testimony, which, humble individual as he was, nevertheless was entitled to a little consideration. He did not mean to say, that the constituency he represented had that interest in the Corporation question which some others had. The reason was this: there were no towns in his county which were likely to become corporate towns. But it was now said that the rights of Irishmen were to be refused, because the majority of them were Roman Catholics; why, if the question were brought forward in that shape, they might refuse to Irishmen the enjoyment of any rights whatever. If they refused what must be admitted to be just rights to Irishmen because a majority of them were Roman Catholics; why, then, they might be denied trial by jury; they might be denied, in fact, any rights that ought to appertain to them as British subjects. He wanted to know what argument, that would withhold Corporations from Ireland, that would refuse to Irishmen the right of their Municipal elections, would not apply generally to the extension of any other liberty to Irishmen, whether as Protestants or as Roman Catholics? He was glad to hear hon. Gentlemen opposite refer so much to the jury question, because it showed this, that if the Tories were consistent and got into power they ought to have Tory judges, that they might appoint Tory sheriffs, in order that the

latter might nominate Tory under-sheriffs, | to their conscientious opinions-that twelve
and so they would have packed juries. men on their oaths would not find an
He did not impute that to the right hon. honest verdict-he did not mean to say
Gentleman opposite (Sir R. Peel), whose that such persons put into a box would
worth he respected. He believed that not give a good verdict; but what he
right hon. Baronet had saved the country contended for was this, that just as good
once, and he hoped God would bless him a verdict would be given if the men in the
for it. He believed that the right hon. box were not party men. Now since that
Baronet would not knowingly do any unfortunate homicide to which he had
such thing; but the fact was, that the referred there had never been another case
feelings of prejudice were so strong of outrage, and this because the people
amongst the Orange party in Ireland, were convinced that they would have fair
that they did not believe they could get play, and that the jury who decided the
a fair trial unless there was a packed case never would have found a verdict of
jury. He would instance a case to justifiable homicide if the act committed
prove this.
In the parish in which he were not justifiable. It was all very well
lived the officers of the revenue police for hon. Gentlemen to say, that juries were
and the country people had a conflict. It always fair in Ireland, because a case had
occurred in the dark; the country people never come against themselves; but this
rushed on the police, by whom one of the he knew Protestants to say when the
people was slaughtered, and died in con- shoes pinched themselves, that they could
sequence of the wound he had received. not bear corporation juries. He had not
One of the revenue officers came to him himself any personal interest in this matter,
in a state of great excitement, and told he never attended their public meetings in
him of the occurrence. It was necessary all his life, but still he could not remain
to have a coroner's inquest: but the silent when his country was denied that
coroner (as was usual in Ireland) was in which it was her plain and manifest right
gaol. The revenue officer said, that the to have. He denied, that because the
magistrates must hold an inquest, and majority of the people of Ireland were
stated that he had sent for a magistrate Catholics, that they, therefore, were hostile
with whom he was acquainted, to request to the connexion with this island. It
his attendance; and also that the jury had, indeed, been said, that corporation
might be taken, not from the neighbour- reform would affect the Church question;
hood in which the occurrence took place this was said because it was declared to
he desired that a jury might be summoned have been asserted by the hon. and
from a town which was at four miles learned Member for Kilkenny that it would
distance. His answer was, that he did affect the Irish Church. Now it was not
not approve
of the revenue officer having enough for hon. Gentlemen opposite to say
sent for a magistrate with whom he was this, or to rest upon the assertion that
acquainted, nor did he even approve of another said it; they ought to prove, that
himself presiding on the occasion; that a connexion between corporate reform
they should not only show the people that and the Established Church existed. The
justice would be done, but also guarantee General Association did not maintain that
justice being administered. He, therefore it would destroy the Church. What it
sent for the stipendiary magistrate. He said was, that corporation reform would
stated, also, that he would not consent to lead to a satisfactory adjustment of the tithe
a jury being brought a distance of four question, and, in his opinion, there was
miles, when the law said the jury should the greatest difference between a satis-
be taken from the neighbourhood. It was factory adjustment of the tithe question
predicted of course that the jury of the and the Established Church. What effect,
neighbourhood would never find any other he asked, could bodies in towns have with
verdict than that of manslaughter. The respect to the tithes, which was merely an
jury heard the evidence-they were sworn agricultural question? The opposite party
-they attended to their oaths-and they could not show it, except by quotations
found a verdict of justifiable homicide. from speeches made by the hon. and
Now, the hon. and learned Sergeant op- learned Member for Kilkenny. In his
posite was for continuing the old jury system. opinion corporation reform could have no
He did not mean to say that a jury even effect whatever on the Established Church.
under that system would not act according The right hon. Member for the University

et

of Dublin had taunted him with con- | heard rumours in many quarters of the stantly saying he was a Protestant. He near approach of the dissolution of the hoped he was a sincere Protestant-that he adhered with firmness to the religion that he professed. He was ready to maintain the religion of the Established Church, and he was one who, if his religion were attacked, would, to use the language of the noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire resist that attack "to the death." He did not say, that corporate reform could alone pacify Ireland; but he believed that, with Poor-laws, it would go a great way towards the tranquilisation of that country. Hon. Gentlemen opposite wished that things in Ireland should remain in statu quo. That was impossible: they could not remain so without coercion bill after coercion bill, and the people of England, he believed, would not run the risk of a civil war for the purpose of sustaining things as they were in Ireland. He might pass over to the other side if it were practicable to keep things as they were in Ireland; but believing that to be impracticable, he gave his support to his Majesty's Government in the course they were pursuing.

Mr. Robinson observed, that he had last year given a silent vote upon this question, and he would have done so this year but for the increased importance which the question had acquired. He would state that there was no question in which the people of England took so deep an interest as this question, and this because it appealed to their sober judgment. He was at a loss to conceive how hon. Gentlemen on the opposition side of the House, who were supporting the Protestant Establishment in that country, could, consistently with their own arguments, impose on Ireland an establishment alien to the feelings of the great body of the people, on account of the Union, and yet pretend, looking to the same Union, to draw a distinction between them and the English people, and deprive them of corporate reform. He had been generally a supporter of the present Ministry, because he saw them, on the one hand, acting as a check upon democracy, which was so unsuited to a mixed Government, and, on the other, opposed to a party to which he should be opposed, who wished to govern the majority for the benefit of the few. It was his opinion that the maintenance of the present Government in Ireland was for the benefit of that country. He had

Melbourne Administration. He would ask those near whom he sat [on the opposition side of the House]-he would ask the Gentlemen on that side of the House, whether it had ever occurred to them to reflect on what must be the condition on which any Administration could succeed to the present with the hostile feeling which must be entertained on their part by the whole Catholic population of Ireland? He would ask, could an appeal be safely made to the people of England and Scotland upon this question? If he could pretend to know anything of the feelings and opinions of his countrymen, he would state with perfect sincerity to those Gentlemen near him, that it was impossible for them to appeal to the people of England and Scotland upon any question that would be more fatal to them and their party than this very question. This was his decided opinion. It was supposed that such an appeal would be attended with more or less success, because it was mixed up with the question of the existence of the Church Establishment. As a member of that Church, he must confess he was extremely sorry to find the claims of the Protestant Church so much mixed up with this question. He was very sorry to hear it avowed by the noble Lord, the Member for North Lancashire (Lord Stanley), when he supported the amendment of the noble Lord, the Member for South Lancashire, that he did so because he considered that the granting Municipal Corporations to Ireland would necessarily lead, and was, as he believed, intended to subvert the Protestant Church. In his opinion, the existence of the Protestant faith, whatever became of the Establishment, did not depend upon this or any other question -he would rather say that it rested upon its intrinsic merits, and in the affection and respect of those who honestly and conscientiously belonged to its communion. But it was said that the granting of Municipal Reform to Ireland would have a tendency to increase the influence-an influence which no subject should possess-enjoyed by the hon. and learned Member for Kilkenny over the people of Ireland. They were warned not to pass this measure, because that hon. and learned Member, in his ndiscretion, had avowed elsewhere, that if Municipal Corporation Reform were

on

debate, the acrimonious invectives
both sides, showed the diseased and dis-
ordered state of Ireland. Let that House
adopt a different system, and they might
expect that Ireland in future, instead of
being a source of weakness, would be-
come a pillar of strength to this country.
For this reason he would oppose most
decidedly the amendment of the noble
Lord, the Member for South Lancashire,
and support the measure of his Majesty's
Government.

granted to Ireland, he would make it the necessary that they should change the
means of carrying all the other points whole course of their policy towards Ire-
which were desired by him and those who land, and when they must endeavour to
acted with him. He would tell the hon. conciliate the affections of the Catholics
and learned Member for Kilkenny, that of Ireland by a real union and identity of
he was very much mistaken in the people interests between the two countries. They
of this country and of Scotland, if he con- had tried the contrary system long enough.
ceived that the sympathy felt by both They were told, that it would be dan-
countries towards the Irish people, which gerous to go on making concession after
induced them to co-operate with the hon. concession. In his opinion the danger
and learned Member and others, in their was purely chimerical. They had seen the
endeavours to obtain justice for Ireland, baneful consequences of a long system of
would in like manner be available, if the misrule and misgovernment in Ireland.
hon. and learned Member should, in an Let them try conciliatory measures-let
evil hour, turn round and advise his them establish civil, political, and reli-
countrymen-having obtained this mea- gious equality in Ireland, and he was
sure, as he hoped they would-to attempt very much mistaken if they would not
to establish a Catholic dominancy on the have reason to bless the hour when the
ruins of the Church Establishment. Was two branches of the Legislature came to
it possible that the Dissenters, who, to a so just a determination, instead of pur-
man almost, supported the present Go-suing this miserable warfare between
vernment, was it possible that they would Protestant and Catholic.
The present
be induced to co-operate for such an un-
holy purpose? The power of the hon.
and learned Member for Kilkenny was
created by a long system of misrule, and
his hope and belief was, that by taking
away the cause, they would deprive the
Irish people of the motive for rallying
round and supporting the hon. and learned
Member; and so far from adding to his
strength for mischievous purposes, they
would absolutely put an end to it in this
country, and greatly weaken it in Ireland.
He must repeat, that he was sorry to find
this question mixed up with the question
of the Established Church. He was sorry
to see that Church put forward as the
only barrier between the people of Ire-
land and their political freedom. He
spoke the sentiments of his constituents
when he said, that if the result should be
the rejection of the present measure by
the other House of Parliament-there was
no doubt that it would be carried by a
large majority in this House-but if the
other House should reject this measure a
second time, and there should be, in con-
sequence, an appeal to the country, he
was perfectly satisfied that the people of
England were determined to support that
Government, and that Government only,
which was disposed to grant the same
rights and privileges to Ireland which
were enjoyed by the people of this country.
This question would be an insuperable
obstacle to keep the hon. Members on that
side of the House out of power. The
time had arrived when it was absolutely

Mr. Richards denied, that the hon. Member for Worcester was at all justified in attributing to hon. Gentlemen at that side of the House such a motive as that of wishing to govern the many for the advantage of the few. He denied that they were actuated by any such feelings, and therefore he thought the observation of the hon. Member for Worcester open to great animadversion. For himself, he could say, that he participated in no such feeling; and he was convinced he might make a similar declaration on behalf of every hon. Gentleman on his side of the House. The noble Lord, the Member for Leitrim, had replied to the facts stated by the hon. and learned Member for Youghal, but had he disproved any of those facts? If the desire were to ascertain whether these facts were true or false, why not grant the Committee which the hon. and learned Member for Youghal had demanded? The refusal to grant that Committee would enable the country to judge of the matter for themselves,

because they must feel, as he did, that if vour of granting Municipal Corporations the case made out by the hon. and learned to Ireland. Now he was well acquainted Member for Youghal could be met, an with that county, and, knowing, as he inquiry would at once have been volun- did, the feeling that prevailed there, he teered. He was anxious, however, to dis- must deny the assertion. He might make cuss this question on its broad principles. the same observations, generally, with reThe noble Lord, the Member for Leitrim, spect to the people of England and of stated, that the people of Ireland were Scotland. The noble Lord, the Member entitled to equal rights with the people of for Leitrim, thought, that this Bill would this country, and of Scotland. No one tend to the pacification of Ireland. No doubted that; but then the question was, doubt it might satisfy certain parties in were not the circumstances of Ireland that country; but, from his acquaintance such as to render it unsafe to grant mu- with the state of Ireland, he could undernicipal institutions to that country? It take to say that, whatever might be its was notorious, that there was in this coun- tendency, it would not be of a pacific try, a struggle between two great prin- character. He had never yet found, that ciples-the influence arising from pro- the lust for all was satisfied by the conperty, and the democratic influence-and cession of a part. On the contrary, amhe would ask, whether the latter influence bition was a passion that grew with what had not been considerably augmented by it fed upon; and, in the present case, the change which had taken place in the was convinced, that if these corporations English corporations? It was by means were put into the hands of the majority, of the democratic power that many of the they would be used as a lever for the hon. Gentlemen opposite occupied seats attainment of universal dominion in Irein that House, and on that same power it land. He well recollected, that when the was, that his Majesty's Ministers relied noble Lord, the Secretary for the Home for their continuance in office. It had Department, introduced the English Mubeen said, that there was no connection nicipal Bill, he declared his conviction between this question, and that relating that the power gained would not be apto the Established Church. He enter- plied for party purposes; yet since that tained a very different opinion; and, be- Bill had been passed, the power had been lieving that this measure, if carried, would exercised for scarcely any other objects; tend to the subversion of the Church, he and he was convinced that it was intended felt it his bounden and sacred duty to to be so wielded at the coming election; oppose it. When the Reform Bill was for the Ministers had no hopes in the under discussion, much was said about counties, and they must, therefore, rely allowing certain individuals to nominate on the towns. to seats in that House: but what were Member for Liskeard had, on a former The hon. and learned they now going to do? Why, to enable night, spoken in periods that were, no the hon. and learned Member for Kil- doubt, most elaborately worded, of the kenny, not to nominate six or seven Mem- extraordinary virtues of municipal institubers for Ireland, but perhaps eighty or tions-of the occupation they would give even ninety. The hon. and learned Mem- the inhabitants in paving and lighting ber had stated, that this measure would their streets. That hon. Member also gave place power to that extent in his hands, one of the oddest illustrations he had and was he not more likely than the ever heard-he said, that the state of Irenoble Lord to understand what would land was untranquil, and that these cor most contribute to the advancement of his porations would give the people of that own views? The hon. and learned Mem-country something to think about, and ber for Kilkenny might be sincere in wish- draw them off from their present quarrels. ing the welfare of his country; but as he Why that should be, he could not under(Mr. Richards) did not think that object stand. If the power was now abused by could be attained by the course which the the minority, how much more hon. and learned Member pursued, he was to be abused by the majority. Why, likely it must give it, as his opinion, that this Bill in proportion to the greatness and irrewould place a most dangerous power in sponsibility of power would be the abuse the hon. and learned Member's hands. of it. On the Opposition side it was proThe hon. Member for Worcester had said, posed, that provision should be made for that the people of Worcester were in fa- the due performance of all the municipal